Organische Belastung und Algen

[nik]

Guten Morgen,

Sascha ruiniert den Versuch und trotzdem wird der Thread interessanter.
Danke, Robert, für das Bild von deinem Ammonium-Kannister. Das ist für mich interessant, weil ich zurzeit vier Nanos von 10-40l pflege und da die Zugabe von abgewogenen Düngesalzen auf das Wechselwasser ziemlich fummelig ist. Meine Idee ist deshalb meine 30l Kanister mit demineralisiertem Wasser schon komplett aufzudüngen.
Da die dunkel stehen, ich das erst mit der Zugabe ins Aquarium aufhärte und ich KNO3 für Kalium und Stickstoff verwende sollte das ohne Algenkulturen funktionieren. Den Mangel an Stickstoff gleiche ich dann im Aquarium über Urea aus. Na ja, du hattest ja angemerkt, ein Aquarium hat eine Neigung zu Algen oder eben nicht. Cladophora spec. ist eine Ausnahme. Die lässt sich leicht importieren und der kam ich mit Düngung oder Mikrobiologie nicht bei.


Hi Nik,

the way of most people to maintain a tank doesn't matter. It's nice to read that your way is similiar to my one. In a planted tank with less fishes, invertebrates, I prefer filter material as less as neccessary and always complete fertilizing. Heating is usually not neccessary and as a result of a well running tank water changes can be minimized. Nevertheless flow is important and needs to be ensured.

In the result similiar, but I think, the reasons are different. Maybe I can show you an other point of view with other possible causes for whys and wherefores of successful (planted) tanks.
Sorry for giving a link to a thread in german language. I know about the problem of specific expressions. I'm using english especially for occupational purposes, means, depending our hobby I have a lack in specific expressions. In case of questions feel free to ask me by pm.

Regards
Nik ^^

 

[Frank2]

Klappt nur, wenn ein in irgend einer Form vorliegender Mangl ausgeglichen wird, oder antagonistische Nährelemente wieder ins richtige "Verhältnis" gerückt werden.

Richtig. Nur ist es gar nicht immer so einfach zu quantifizieren ob ein Mangel überhaupt vorliegt. Im einen Becken reicht N03 von 8 aus für ein prächtiges Wachstum, im anderen wird aber 20 benötigt. Hier sind unterschiedliche einflussnehmende Faktoren die Ursache, daher bringt es nichts zu sagen, dass zb Fadenalgen auftauchen wenn N03 wert unter 15 ist. Das stimmt einfach so nicht allgemeingültig, es gibt genügend Beispiele ohne Fadenalgen mit N03 5-10. Darauf wolle ich hinaus. Die Balance in diesem Becken ist dann eine andere wie in dem Becken mit N03 20. Und die oftmals vorgeschlagenen Verhältnisse zueinander sind auch nur ein Teil der Wahrheit wobei die sicherlich beachtet werden sollten.

Viele Grüße
Frank

 

[niko_texas]

Thank you all for the welcoming comments!

Bocap,

I too think that a good way to keep algae away is to not introduce them. But I do not think that is realistic unless you use only hydroponically grown plants and never add any plants from other aquariums. Also I am not sure how you can add fish to your tank without introducing algae spores (I assume they carry algae in their intestines).

Below are some pictures that I took in one of my extremely stable tanks. The tank has been setup for 7 years now. It has very little filtration, a lot of fish and I never change water. What you see on the pictures is Anubias from another aquarium. The Anubias was covered with Black Beard Algae.

I moved 4 Anubias plants covered with Black Beard Algae into the very stable tank. I put Anubias 1 in the tank and wait to see when the Black Beard Algae will disappear. Only after that I put Anubias 2. Then Anubias 3 and then Anubias 4. In each case the Black Beard Algae completely disappeared from 1 to 30 days! No water changes, no algea eaters, no chemicals!
https://plus.google.com/photos/111646610078083070168/albums/6032605390290166945?banner=pwa&authkey=CLSLk_GR7dP13QE

I do not understand how Black Beard Algae can disappear completely in 1 day! But I have seen that before. I used to have a pet fish import business and all my tanks where crowded with fish. In a 300 liter tank I had about 150 fish. That was not a planted tank. I put plants covered with Black Beard Algae in that tank and the algae disappeared in one day. Sometimes only 8 hours! I made sure that it is not the fish that ate the Black Beard Algae. I put the plants on the surface and the Black Beard Algae disappears from the top of the plant (the part that is wet but above the water surface)! Also some of the plants were very damaged but only the Black Beard Algae disappeared leaving ugly sick leaves completely algae free. That means that the fish did not eat the algae. Most likely it was a bacterial process of decomposition of the algae.

That makes me believe that it is not the amount of organics that keeps algae away. And it is not the introduction of algae that keeps the algae away. I believe that we have to look into HOW everything interacts in the aquarium.

One simple example is the biofilter. In the USA no one understands the basics of freshwater aquarium filtration. I have written many posts about filtration but there is not much interest in that topic. We think that a biofilter only converts Ammonia to Nitrate, nothing else. But what I want to say is that we have clean, algae-free tanks with bad biofilters and dirty tanks with the same kind of biomedia. No one can deny that you can use Eheim biomedia and have algae or not have algae. This is a simple example of how the parts of the system do not necessarily make it work as we want. That is why I believe that what is more important is to know HOW things interact. Actually I think that learning about these processes is the only future of the planted tank hobby. But because of commercial interests targeting naive hobyists/consumers I am not sure that many people are interested in that topic.

--Nik

 

[kiko]

hi Nik,

In a 300 liter tank I had about 150 fish. That was not a planted tank. I put plants covered with Black Beard Algae in that tank and the algae disappeared in one day. Sometimes only 8 hours! I
No water changes, no algea eaters, no chemicals!

Wie heißt es so schön, es wird immer einen Esel geben der auch diese Distel frißt und bei einem Besatz von hunderten an Tieren, wird sicherlich auchmal einer hungrig an garstige Algen gehen. So wenn ich eine PA befallene Anubie hab, werf ich die einfach in mein kleines Abfallbecken: 2Wochen später brauch ich sie nur rausfischen und sie sind blitzblank.
Das hat auch nix mit Zauberei zu tuen, den Algen gefällt nunmal nicht jedes Mileu, werden dadurch geschwächt und anschließend einfach nur von den Posthornschnecken aufgefressen.
Und auch in deinem Bild sieht man die Ursache für das "magische" verschwinden der Algen:
https://plus.google.com/photos/111646610078083070168/albums/6032605390290166945/6032605389985264706?banner=pwa&authkey=CLSLk_GR7dP13QE&pid=6032605389985264706&oid=111646610078083070168
Laß die Schnecken incl. Fische mal raus, und die Algen bleiben.

 

[omega]

Hello Texas Nik,

Inconsistency is a big problem - for example most planted tank enthusiasts change water too often. This is very disruptive to the tank establishment. In fact most tanks that we see on pictures on the Internet are very unstable and can not exist without care for longer than one week.

I disagree. I change 70% water each week. There are no algae visible. Omitting water change for three weeks my aquarium still doesn't show algae.
Changing a sufficient amount of water on a regular basis keeps the tank much more consistent than changing no water at all. In the latter case the water drifts and drifts and drifts until it ... depends ... upsets or stabilises. This is not new, however.

I still wonder aquarists most time talk about chemicals when it is about algae growth. Ever thought about microorganisms like bacteria, protozoae, protists and higher level µorgs? Ever put samples under a microscope and compared different tanks that way? I cannot see that just added nutrient influences algae growth. Stability and treatment also has an effect on microorganisms.

Regards, Markus

 

[nik]

Hi Nik,

in the given thread of my last posting I try to show how to get a stable tank as you describe. By chance I set up a tank which was for 13 years unbelievable stable and algae free. Since that I was thinking how to reproduce such an environment. In the beginning I thougt about fertilization, later filtration, also reflecting gravel, sand, light, temperature, water change, whatever ...

Off course all this parts interacts but in general it was not for sure to set up a stable and algae free tank! The last possibility was the look for microbiology. The longer I engaged in microbiology the whole story makes sense and becomes coherent.

There is also in germany no discussion and I'm not sure wether it makes sense. The idea of the given thread is to point out the outstanding impact of microbiology for a successful tank - planted or not, filtered or not, strong lighted or not, water changed or not, ...
From my point of view all mentioned parts of aquaristik are interacting and are worth to be discussed in theire meaning for establishing a well working microbiology.

If you read the given thread backwards, you'll find my latest project. It is a small 5 gal tank with sand and stone, without filtration, only flow, very strong lighted, without plants but water fully fertilized. Focussed on a well working microbiology/biofilm it becames a stable and absolutely algae free tank.

Regards, Nik

 

[Wuestenrose]

Servus...

I too think that a good way to keep algae away is to not introduce them.

Ich stimme dem nicht zu. Du erkennst ja selber, daß Algen bzw. deren Sporen so ziemlich allem anhaften, was wir ins Aquarium tun. Mal abgesehen davon, daß es schlicht und ergreifend unmöglich ist, vorher alles zu autoklavieren, was Berührung mit dem Aquarienwasser bekommt, kann man ein Aquarium nicht mit Algen infizieren.

Entweder ein Aquarium zeigt eine Tendenzu zur Algenbildung, aus welchen Gründen auch immer, oder es zeigt sie nicht. In beiden Fällen ist es egal, was wir absichtlich an Algen ins Aquarium kippen. Im ersten Fall wird das Aquarium immer veralgen, im zweiten Fall nicht.

Grüße
Robert

 

[niko_texas]

Hi Nik,

in the given thread of my last posting I try to show how to get a stable tank as you describe. By chance I set up a tank which was for 13 years unbelievable stable and algae free. Since that I was thinking how to reproduce such an environment. In the beginning I thougt about fertilization, later filtration, also reflecting gravel, sand, light, temperature, water change, whatever ...

I started to dream about the same things when I noticed that some tanks, not all, somehow become very stable. The stability of such tank is astonishing. In one of them I can let the water evaporate 30% and there is no algae. Or I can add CO2 and the plants grow faster but there is no algae. I can feed the fish too much - no algae. I can not feed the fish for many weeks - no algae. The tank balance is almost impossible to destroy!

Off course all this parts interacts but in general it was not for sure to set up a stable and algae free tank! The last possibility was the look for microbiology. The longer I engaged in microbiology the whole story makes sense and becomes coherent.

There is also in germany no discussion and I'm not sure wether it makes sense. The idea of the given thread is to point out the outstanding impact of microbiology for a successful tank - planted or not, filtered or not, strong lighted or not, water changed or not, ...
From my point of view all mentioned parts of aquaristik are interacting and are worth to be discussed in theire meaning for establishing a well working microbiology.

The micro organism life of an aquarium is something that you must start learning. In the USA not a single person talks about that! That is hard to believe but it is true.

Yesterday I went into the Flowgrow chat and someone (Anja) suggested that I look into the Femanga products. I will buy some of them soon. But they have to be imported from Germany or England. In the USA there is one single company that sells one single product that is meant to fight all kinds of algae by stimulating the growth of Diatom algae. The name is Nualgi. And it is not known very well. As I said - nobody in the USA makes a connection between a healthy planted tank and micro organisms.

If you read the given thread backwards, you'll find my latest project. It is a small 5 gal tank with sand and stone, without filtration, only flow, very strong lighted, without plants but water fully fertilized. Focussed on a well working microbiology/biofilm it becames a stable and absolutely algae free tank.

I did not see that post. I will look for it now. What I want to say is that a test in which there are no plants does not seem like the best idea to me. I believe that plants are the strongest pollutants of the aquarium water IF we talk about biochemicals that invite algae. As I said before - I believe that if the plants are not perfectly healthy they release "juices" that are very useful for algae.

--Nik

 

[niko_texas]

hi Nik,

In a 300 liter tank I had about 150 fish. That was not a planted tank. I put plants covered with Black Beard Algae in that tank and the algae disappeared in one day. Sometimes only 8 hours! I
No water changes, no algea eaters, no chemicals!

Wie heißt es so schön, es wird immer einen Esel geben der auch diese Distel frißt und bei einem Besatz von hunderten an Tieren, wird sicherlich auchmal einer hungrig an garstige Algen gehen. So wenn ich eine PA befallene Anubie hab, werf ich die einfach in mein kleines Abfallbecken: 2Wochen später brauch ich sie nur rausfischen und sie sind blitzblank.
Das hat auch nix mit Zauberei zu tuen, den Algen gefällt nunmal nicht jedes Mileu, werden dadurch geschwächt und anschließend einfach nur von den Posthornschnecken aufgefressen.
Und auch in deinem Bild sieht man die Ursache für das "magische" verschwinden der Algen:
https://plus.google.com/photos/111646610078083070168/albums/6032605390290166945/6032605389985264706?banner=pwa&authkey=CLSLk_GR7dP13QE&pid=6032605389985264706&oid=111646610078083070168
Laß die Schnecken incl. Fische mal raus, und die Algen bleiben.

The only fish that I have seen to actually eat fully grown Black Beard Algae is one species of Stiphodon (S. ornatus). And it does not eat all the Black Beard Algae but just clears up an area where it lives. The only way a fish can eat healthy Black Beard Algae is if there are many fish AND the algae is very young (2-3 days old). Old and healthy Black Beard Algae can not be removed from wood even using a Dremel tool with a wire brush!
http://www.homeracingworld.com/braidworkwirewheel.jpg

Healthy Black Beard Algae on plant leaves can be removed only by weakening the algae. And chemicals like H2O2 Bleach, or Glutaraldehyde work only for a short time. The best way to combat Black Beard Algae is through some little known processes. That is what happened in the 300 liter tank full of 150 fish and in the tank with the Anubias in the pictures. Something that I do not understand. Processes that we must know more about!

I also am sure that I can repeat the experiment with Anubias and Black Beard Algae. If I can find Anubias with very healthy and dense Black Beard Algae.

The Ramshorn snails can not do anything to Black Beard Algae. There is no snail that can damage Black Beard Alage. Amano shrimp can not do anything to Black Beard Algae - I have had 200 Amano shrimp in a 100 gallon tank and they ate all other algae (including Cladophora!) but not the Black Beard Algae.

 

[niko_texas]

Hello Texas Nik,

Inconsistency is a big problem - for example most planted tank enthusiasts change water too often. This is very disruptive to the tank establishment. In fact most tanks that we see on pictures on the Internet are very unstable and can not exist without care for longer than one week.

I disagree. I change 70% water each week. There are no algae visible. Omitting water change for three weeks my aquarium still doesn't show algae.
Changing a sufficient amount of water on a regular basis keeps the tank much more consistent than changing no water at all. In the latter case the water drifts and drifts and drifts until it ... depends ... upsets or stabilises. This is not new, however.

I still wonder aquarists most time talk about chemicals when it is about algae growth. Ever thought about microorganisms like bacteria, protozoae, protists and higher level µorgs? Ever put samples under a microscope and compared different tanks that way? I cannot see that just added nutrient influences algae growth. Stability and treatment also has an effect on microorganisms.

Regards, Markus

I think that we all all correct. Not changing water is ok. Changing water is ok. But the difference is what do you want the tank to look like. All tanks that I have had in the past that have been stable had slow growing plants and nothing changed fast. Many people want tanks with bright light and very fast growth. That can only happen with a lot of fertilizers and with water changes.

Tanks without water changes go through phases. Every few months certain plants take over. Some plants die forever. Some do not die but never grow very well. At times something happens and one species of plant explodes and grows very fast and takes over the tank. Than that stops and things change again. Changes like that (that happen by themselves) is not what all people want. Most people want to have a tank that looks like the way they want. So in the end - all of us are right but it depends on what you want from your tank.

I absolutely hate the discussion of chemicals and aquatic plants. It is a very simple way (stupid) to look at a complicated system. Also there is something else that happens every time - when there are problems there are no answers! Most people in America think that a clean, algae-free, planted tank has to have a lot of light, lots of plants, lots of fertilizers, and consistent CO2=30 mg/L (and even more if there are no fish in the tank). This works but the tanks are extremely unstable. Here in America it is normal to "shut down" the planted aquarium when you go on a vacation! You turn off the lights or reduce the light period, do not add fertilizers. It is normal to think that when you come back from a vacation you have to clean the tank for 3 -14 days so it is "normal" again! I find that very stupid.

The microorganisms in the aquarium: There is a very interesting German website (http://www.deters-ing.de) where the details of how a biofilter works are discussed. I talked about some of that information on two American planted tank forums but very few people were interested. One very interesting thing is that the function of the biofilter depends on the flow. If the flow is not good the biofilter can actually release Ammonia instead of converting it to Nitrate. That is interesting to me but not to most American hobbyists. They are interested more in LED lights, Japanese aquarium stands, and especially fertilizers. Maybe that is why the American aquascaping hobby is in a very bad shape. In the last 5 years very few American aquascapes have been placed high in any contest. In 2013 in the North American Aquatic Plants contest there were only 8 (eight!) American aquascapes! And all of them were not very good. That is because most people are interested in fertilizers and equipment and nothing else. See for yourself - count the American aquascapes in all categories:
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2013/categories.html

--Nik

 

[niko_texas]

Servus...

I too think that a good way to keep algae away is to not introduce them.

Ich stimme dem nicht zu. Du erkennst ja selber, daß Algen bzw. deren Sporen so ziemlich allem anhaften, was wir ins Aquarium tun. Mal abgesehen davon, daß es schlicht und ergreifend unmöglich ist, vorher alles zu autoklavieren, was Berührung mit dem Aquarienwasser bekommt, kann man ein Aquarium nicht mit Algen infizieren.

Entweder ein Aquarium zeigt eine Tendenzu zur Algenbildung, aus welchen Gründen auch immer, oder es zeigt sie nicht. In beiden Fällen ist es egal, was wir absichtlich an Algen ins Aquarium kippen. Im ersten Fall wird das Aquarium immer veralgen, im zweiten Fall nicht.

Grüße
Robert

I said the same thing as you. Read this again:
"I too think that a good way to keep algae away is to not introduce them. But I do not think that is realistic unless you use only hydroponically grown plants and never add any plants from other aquariums. Also I am not sure how you can add fish to your tank without introducing algae spores (I assume they carry algae in their intestines)..."

I also think that the processes inside the aquarium let algae grow or suppress algae. Killing algae with chemicals does not work: Few months ago I changed water using old dechlorinator. All my fish, plants, snails, and shrimp died. Also all algae (Cladophora) died. Even the water became very clear! I did not put new fish and plants. I let the aquarium alone. One month later in the same tank I saw Cladophora growing again! The Chlorine and Chloramine in my tap water killed everything but in 30 days the algae came back. Because some kind of conditions in the aquarium allowed it. So I believe that combating algae is about natural processes in the aquarium, not chemicals, concentrations of fertilizers, etc.

But indirectly everything that we do in an aquarium has an effect on the algae. If there are not enough nutrients the plants grow weak and release "juices". I believe that these "juices" are very good for algae. That is how bad fertilization can lead to algae. But improving the fertilzation does not always solve the algae problem. Also in some aquariums the fertilizers are too much or too little and there are no algae anyway.

--Nik

 

[kiko]

hi,

The Ramshorn snails can not do anything to Black Beard Algae.

Sry, but you are wrong there, Ramshorns eat BBA (if they want to do so, but not always they want)

The attached images were taken several years ago from my first tank. I had not known in my beginnings what are this or that for algae and this were my first snails - so I certainly was very curious what the guys are doing there and I just watched what they do and to my surprised they cleaned all my plants.
The 2 snails seen on the attached image needed just 30minutes to clean the whole leaf.
From this time: Snails were my best friends. :lol:
On the second image, you can also see a lot off dark curled shit coming out off the snails, because this is what will be left from eaten BBAs. :wink:

Now well, some folks will for sure now say:"Hey, I have ramshorns and also lot off BBA"
This may be true, because the snails will not eat under all circumstandings BBA. It may have something to do how and what ever so you feed, also it may help if the algae is somehow weaken - having No or still little Co2, less nutritions and less light may help there, too
In any highlight Soil, Co2 rich + EI traces rich tanks the snails will not help anything, because BBA will spread and reproduce itself a lot faster in such setups. This has something to do with the rich traces dosing, primary iron and copper can boost BBA growth a lot.

 

[nik]

Hi Nik,

I started to dream about the same things when I noticed that some tanks, not all, somehow become very stable. The stability of such tank is astonishing. In one of them I can let the water evaporate 30% and there is no algae. Or I can add CO2 and the plants grow faster but there is no algae. I can feed the fish too much - no algae. I can not feed the fish for many weeks - no algae. The tank balance is almost impossible to destroy!

yes, I faced at once which kind of tanks you mean. The general problem starts, because a lot of people neither know this stable tanks nor they can imagine what is possible! If I describe my tanks it seems to be unbelievable.

In a way it is easy to reproduce such a tank. Looking especially for microbiology or biofilm - biofilm is better to explain, because biofilm is on all surfaces - you can import/export biofilm from one tank to another. To set up a new tank only a few plants from such a stable tank are needed. The benefit for a new tank is not the amount of plants, it's the quality of biofilm on the surface of them! Only few plants are needed to start. I tried it. I give you an example. For a short time less brown algae appears. I can't name them, it's that kind of algae which only appears usually in the beginning of a tank. the images are in a chronicle order.

Setup 04.10.2009

• nik
• 19 November 2009

60x35x35 FG

• nik
• 23 November 2009
• 2

Sauerstoffproduktion II

• nik
• 19 November 2009

Zwischenstand

• nik
• 30 November 2009
• 1

The plants were from a stable tank. That's easy and very fast! Between first and last image are not more then 12 weeks.

One of the objectives of my thread is, how to get a stable tank without having a stable tank where I can use plants from - and that is not easy! There is a feeling needed to handle micro organism and I show different point of views to give an imagination how to achieve a stable tank. But I'm with you, it can last long, up to a year. In the most cases it works but seldom it happens and I have to give up a tank

Regards, Nik

 

[niko_texas]

hi,

The Ramshorn snails can not do anything to Black Beard Algae.

Sry, but you are wrong there, Ramshorns eat BBA (if they want to do so, but not always they want)
...

I have never seen Ramshorn snails, or even Neritina snais, to eat BBA. But there are two things that make sense in what you said:

1. Some years ago I had a tank in which I had only Crystal dwarf shrimp and a few small tetras. There were also a few Ramshorn snails. There was some visible dirt (mulm) on the bottom.
Later I added Amano shrim, Cherry shrimp, and Neritina snails. I noticed that in only few days the dirt on the bottom (the mulm) disappeared.
I believe that in a planted tank we need to create a "conveyor belt" for processing waste. That is a combination of animals that will process the waste from big pieces to smaller and smaller pieces.
Fish+Plants make big waste ---> Amano shrimp process the big waste from fish+plants ---> Dwarf shrimp (2-4 differente species) process the smaller waste from Amano shrimp ---> Snails (3-5 different species of snails) process the smaller waste from dwarf shrimp ---> One-cell microorganisms process the waste from snails ---> bacteria (biofilm) processes the smallest waste.

I say that because in this diagram of waste processing it is also very important to weaken the algae. Healthy plants, light periodization, CO2 periodization, O2 periodization, good water flow pattern (circular), good water flow type (as close to laminar as possible).

When all these things actually work well together I do think that some animals (like Ramshorn) snails can actually help with problems that are very serious in a tank with lots of fertilizers, light, and CO2 (the typical EI tank).

2. For many years now people have noticed that Black Beard Algae is not very common in lower light tanks. Also Black Beard Algae is not common in tanks that have slower growth.

To me this has to do with the plants releasing organic "juices". In a slow tank there is more order - there is time to process the waste from fish and plants. In a fast tank (lots of light and fertilizers) there is no time to process the waste. The only way to maintain such a tank is to do water changes! Most people think that the water changes prevent fertilizer accumulation but that is not the whole picture. Much more important role of the water change is to remove the waste that the fast tank can not handle.

A few months ago on Facebook Tom Barr (the creator of EI) showed his big and beautiful tank full of algae. He had gone away for one week and the CO2 had stopped running. Also the person that was supposed to fertilize the tank did not fertilize. The tank had started to develop algae around day 4. By day 7 it was full of algae. That shows how unstable fast tanks are. Also Tom Barr showed how in 2-3 days he cleaned the tank completely through water changes, manual removal of algae, and adding ferilizers! All of this is a good example how we, if we want, can keep the tank clean and "healthy". In reality there are better, easier ways to do that - by setting up the tank so the microorganisms help us. But very few people are interested in that. Mainly because it takes time I think.

In a slower, well established tank the microorganisms can process the waste. And yes - in a slower tank where the algae can not grow super fast even the simplest animals (Otocinclus, Ramshorn snails) will indeed eat algae effectively.

Still, I am not convinced that Ramshorn snails can actually eat Black Beard Algae. But maybe they do when the Black Beard Algae is still very small and very young. As we all know - in the first 3-4 days Black Beard Algae is very soft and easy to remove.

--Nik

 

[niko_texas]

....yes, I faced at once which kind of tanks you mean. The general problem starts, because a lot of people neither know this stable tanks nor they can imagine what is possible! If I describe my tanks it seems to be unbelievable. ...

Nik,
Where is the thread that you are talking about? The thread about "how to get a stable tank without having a stable tank where I can use plants from"? I want to read it.

Yes! When I talk about such stable tanks people do not understand me. And honestly when I tell someone about such stable tanks I myself wonder if what I am saying is true It just does not make any sense! But I have seen 6 tanks like that in the last 10 years. Two of them I have right now.

I have never thought about using plants from such a stable tank to start a new stable tank. Thank you for the pictures and the information. It is very useful in starting to believe that such tanks are actually possible to setup!

The only common thing that I have noticed in my 5 super-stable tanks is that all of them were started slowly. That does not mean low light.. I think that it means that the waste in the tanks had time to be processed:

1. Super-stable tank #1
That was my first planted tank in America in 2003. I ordered plants from the Internet, CO2, and strong lights. I setup the tank with no fish, inert substrate, and no fertilizers.

The CO2 and the light were very high (108 watts of tubular Compact Fluorescent bulbs with individual reflectors 5 cm. from the water surface in a 180 liter tank). But there were only plants, no fish.

The plants grew healthy but not very fast. I think that this was the key - the plants should not be forced to grow fast (and produce a lot of waste). My strong light and high CO2 where not enough to make the plants grow fast but also there was no environment for algae - the plants were healthy and slow growing and there were no fertlizers in the water.

In a few months I started to add very small amounts of Phosphate and Nitrate. About 0.01 ppm a day P and about 1 ppm a day N. The plants started to grow super fast. In one month I had to cut a lot of them and I had about 2 kilograms of extra plants which I took to the pet fish store! There were zero algae! And someone gave me a plant with algae. I put it in the tank and the next day the plant was completely clean! I did not think a lot about that in 2003.

This is a picture of that tank in 2003. Before adding the N and P. You can see that the Java Fern is short, also the grass-like echinodorus is pale (not very green) and the Potamogeton on the right is very short (normally the Potamogeton leaves are 30-40 cm long!). That is an example of a tank with high CO2, high light, no fish, no fertilizers, and healthy but not very strong plants.
http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20110622-aquaria-kraltchev.jpg.ece/ALTERNATES/w620/aquaria-kraltchev.jpg

And this is a picture of the same tank after I started adding N and P (very small amounts). The Java fern pearled so strong that the entire aquarium looked like boiling water. Al the crazy pearling was actually very ugly so I started to use only 54 watts of light. What is interesting is that in about 3 months I removed the Java Fern from the aquarium. The Java Fern was extremely strong and the leaves were packed very dense. The plant was literally hard like cabbage! And every single leaf was green! Even the leaves in the back near the bottom where there was no light! Also when I removed the Java Fern from that 180 liter tank I put it on a 180 cm table. The plant was 170 cm long, 25 cm wide, and 25 cm tall! All that Java Fern had grown in a tank measuring 120 cm X 45 cm X 30 cm. As you see - the density of the growth was crazy!
http://aquariumtidings.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Microsorum_pteropus.jpg

After I started to add N and P I added 4 Siamese Algae Eater fish to the tank. Also I added about 10 Amano shrimp. I did not have algae but I was stupid and did what Amano suggested In one week the Siamese Algae Eaters had eaten all the moss in the tank because there was nothing to eat! And the Amano shrimp smelled a single piece of dry food from far away and were fighting with each other for it! There was not a single spot of any algae in that tank!

I changed 15 liters of water once a week. Never vacuumed the bottom (there was no dirt).

2. Super-stable tank #2
This tank was strange. It was in a room with no windows. Inert substrate, 90 liters, 54 watts of light 5 cm from the surface. Light was on only 1 (one) hour a day! So the tank was in darkness 23 hours a day!

There was a very slow supply of CO2 in that tank. No fish.

The plants in that tank (Marsilea, Valisneria, Java Fern, Crypts, Hemianthus callitrichoides, Rotala) did not grow fast at all. The tank was the same for many weeks. The plants never died (even the HC!) but were small and very green. The HC was very small and survived only floating on the surface.

That tank did not need any care. I changed 5 liters of water a week.

One day the CO2 ran out. Wihout CO2 many of the plants melted in 2 days! So it seemed that CO2 is almost more important that light! 1 hour of light a day + CO2 = plants are ok. 1 hour of light a day - CO2 = plants die in 2 days.

There were no algae in the tank. At some point I put 4 Amano shrimp in that tank + some Chara sp. (an algae that looks like a stem plant). I collected the Chara in a creek near by. In 4 hours the hungry Amanos had eated all the Chara! Indeed there were no algae in that tank and the Amanos were very hungry.

3. Super-stable tank #3
This tank was 70 liters and Luis Navarro, the best American aquascaper, set it up at one of our club meetings. Pictures of Luis Navarro's aquascapes are not easy to find on the internet. The internet is not really reflecting the work of some of the best aquascapers. I know a few people that will never post their aquascape pictures on the internet because in the USA the hobby is mostly stupid discussions. But you can see some of Luis' old aquascapes in the link below.

Anyway, so Luis setup a tank in our club meeting. The tank had low light, rich substrate (clay, active carbon, peat) covered with an inert layer. The tank had no CO2.

I did not change water in that tank. For 2 months I left it alone. There were never algae in that tank. All the plants (Anubias, ferns, mosses, Marsilea) grew very well but not fast. They were very green and there were never bad leaves. No fertilizers, no water changes, no fish. The tank ran for about 6 months like that. Not a single problem. Then I had to move out of my apartment.

Luis Navarro tanks (not all are his, look at the image name for reference):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/81995134@N00/with/149605390


4. Super-Stable tank #4
I set up this 30 liter tank using peat+ active carbon+ laterite. It has Crypts, Anubias, Moss. No fish in the first 2 months. The tank has been absolutely perfect for 6 years now! Never a single problem! There are fish in the tank and a small filter. The light is 20 watts. Water change 3 liters a week but not really needed. Plants have to be pruned every month.

5. Super-stable tank #5
200 liters, in my house for 7 years now. This is the tank that cleans Black Beard Algae off Anubias
(https://plus.google.com/photos/111646610078083070168/albums/6032605390290166945?banner=pwa&authkey=CLSLk_GR7dP13QE)

This tank is the most interesting to me because I can really say that it was established very slow. And I believe that slow establishment is very important if you want to make a super stable tank.

The tank was setup with only water, gravel, and filter. No fish, no light, no plants. The water was moving but that was all.

For 1 year the tank was ran like that - one year without fish, without plants. Just a biofilter and water movement.

The gravel had some plant seeds inside. In spring I notice that very small plants started to grow on the substrate. They were Potamogeton. I did nothing, just watched the baby plants grow. In about 2 months they were 8 cm. tall. No fertlizers and no light. But the morning sun was hitting the tank for 30 minutes!

Later I added different plants and many fish. The tank has never had a single algae problem. The filter is very small and very slow (maybe only 50 liters per hour of flow). The plants are not very big and healthy but they die only if another plant start to shade them or grow too fast. In that tank I have about 12 different species of plants. Some of them I did not put in the tank. They came as very small pieces of plants on another plant. I never knew they were there but they grow better than the other plants.

I overfeed the fish. No algae. I have let this tank evaporate 30% - no issues. I have put CO2 - no issues, just plants grow faster. I have let the tank without light - no problem. I did not feed the fish for 2 months - they did not die and the plants did not die. Super stable!

6. Super-stable tank #6 (and 7)
These two tanks are in the house of a guy in the club. The big tank has not had a water change in 1 (one) year! Only additions of RO water. Also he adds a little bit of Trace ferlizers once every few months!
https://plus.google.com/photos/111646610078083070168/albums/6051290027261393601?banner=pwa&authkey=CO-Ym_KzzMjhPA

The second tank (smaller) is similar. No water changes, lots of fish.

The plants in both tanks are not perfect but they are all very good looking! No alge. And as you can see - a lot of fish!

--Nik